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Post by WxMAN on Feb 25, 2018 15:17:41 GMT -6
I actually want to put this paragraph first, so people read it, even if they skip everything else: Why is it you (or your character) feels this was a failure in tactics? Is it because you later found out there were children? Because the dead were all women? If these are things which made you feel that way, I understand and it is natural, but we should think deeper about the fights we get into. The vast majority of adversaries you face value their life to at least some degree - so diplomacy is very often an option, though it may take some losses on their side for them to consider it in some cases. Each "enemy" you kill or save defines your character in each individual's own eyes, including your own - whether this is mook#5237 or King Evil McEvilmann of the Irredeemably Terrible Plane. Every potential encounter with an enemy should start with the question for you: "Is this enemy worth risking my life to potentially bargain with, and if that answer is no, what does that make me in my own eyes as well as the eyes of my allies and potential allies who's opinions I care about?" Jumping into battle is risky, offering to parlay with an opponent who may use the opportunity to harm you is even riskier. On one hand, we typically do not celebrate the people who take the easy paths as heroes, on the other, there are also probably countless people who are nameless to us because they were killed while taking the harder path. Finally, knowledge is power in life as it is in this game. This could have just as easily been a trap to lure you in and take you unawares with overwhelming force - in which case you'd have been happy Babus nuked them from orbit instead of you guys haplessly wandering into a trap. Making sure you're comfortable with what you know before you act is a wise course of action. Right. So in the wake of the "bandit fight" thing, I've been thinking about what we did wrong and what we should have done. A small nitpicky clarification. You guys did nothing wrong, per-say. Your characters inhabit a deadly area where most (if not all) have fallen in combat at least once. It is perfectly natural for your characters to be "if it moves, kill it" in mentality - that mentality just isn't very heroic. Whether or not that is a problem for your character is up to you. If y'all feel it is completely in character to become rulers with an iron fist, go nuts. There is no "right" way to be in this game, every major choice will have good and bad consequences - and sometimes a "less than heroic" group of people can look heroic to the outside when the world is presented with an even greater danger. I do appreciate, however, if you felt this encounter maybe made your characters think twice about how you go into combat that you're talking about how to avoid these "mistakes" in the future. We're not accustomed to having a dedicated roguely type in this party, so we did not use Melikova's abilities like we should have. Getting her into the camp to scout (in addition to Walker, I suppose) should have been high on our list. We need to figure out a way to utilize her more effectively in future encounters - glancing over her stats, I see she's got Stealth +10 (presuming she's not weighed down with gear) which can be bumped to +14 for about 6 rounds (using her Ki pool.) Plus Darkvision. Need to keep this in mind. Melikova is a wonderful talent resource and a definite boon to the party, but I agree that since y'all especially familiar with her or her abilities it is hard to take her into account for planning. I am finding similar problems trying to weave her story better in with the party, but at a certain point, time is the needed element for everyone to working like a well oiled machine. Walker did a fantastic job of scouting, let it be said, and really gave you guys everything you needed to diffuse the situation relatively peacefully, as the bandits (unbeknownst to them) literally had nothing to bargain with. They thought the threat of killing Tomis would save them, but thanks to Walker getting a person to interrogate, you knew he was already dead. Rather than charging forward en masse like we did, I'm thinking that Andrei should have advanced ahead of the rest of the company under a banner of truce to offer the bandits terms of surrender. Yeah, they might have conceivably still resisted but giving them the option to see the overwhelming force arrayed against them might have gone a long way in circumventing this mess. While Andrei is no slouch in the diplomacy department, do remember you have a Grand Diplomat in Melikova who took over for your previous Grand Diplomat, Walays. If tense negotiations are to be had, someone with specialized knowledge, languages, and skills may come in handy. Everything doesn't need to fall on Andrei's shoulders, and the hard part of leadership is knowing how to delegate
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Post by Gigermann on Feb 25, 2018 15:21:16 GMT -6
To be fair, we did send a scout, and it's really just bad luck that he didn't notice the kids—he was focused on the actual mission
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Post by Rigil Kent on Feb 25, 2018 17:52:55 GMT -6
I actually want to put this paragraph first, so people read it, even if they skip everything else: Why is it you (or your character) feels this was a failure in tactics? Is it because you later found out there were children? Because the dead were all women? If these are things which made you feel that way, I understand and it is natural, but we should think deeper about the fights we get into. The vast majority of adversaries you face value their life to at least some degree - so diplomacy is very often an option, though it may take some losses on their side for them to consider it in some cases. Each "enemy" you kill or save defines your character in each individual's own eyes, including your own - whether this is mook#5237 or King Evil McEvilmann of the Irredeemably Terrible Plane. Every potential encounter with an enemy should start with the question for you: "Is this enemy worth risking my life to potentially bargain with, and if that answer is no, what does that make me in my own eyes as well as the eyes of my allies and potential allies who's opinions I care about?" Jumping into battle is risky, offering to parlay with an opponent who may use the opportunity to harm you is even riskier. On one hand, we typically do not celebrate the people who take the easy paths as heroes, on the other, there are also probably countless people who are nameless to us because they were killed while taking the harder path. Finally, knowledge is power in life as it is in this game. This could have just as easily been a trap to lure you in and take you unawares with overwhelming force - in which case you'd have been happy Babus nuked them from orbit instead of you guys haplessly wandering into a trap. Making sure you're comfortable with what you know before you act is a wise course of action. Okay, so I phrased that poorly. Andrei considers it a failure in tactics principally due to the edicts of his cavalier order of the Blue Rose: So basically, Andrei is currently attempting to figure out what he could have done to resolve this without additional bloodshed. (Throw in the 'Neutral Good' thing as well.) I actually think that's likely going to continue being an issue with him given his Aldori upbringing which likely encourages handling any and all disputes & disagreements with a fight - on one hand, I can see a lot of more aggressive fightery types seeing his preference for diplomatic or peaceful solutions to be a sign of weakness, but I'm actually thinking of it as 'apply the minimum amount of force necessary' matching the NG alignment quite well. Thus, whenever possible, he absolutely will attempt to parley first ... think Ronald Reagan's stance on the USSR & nuclear disarmament here: Trust ... but verify. I could totally see him having to constantly deal with nobles who think he's weak ... until they see firsthand that he's not after they foolishly insist on getting into a duel with him. Andrei is Neutral Good so he's going to oppose the "ruling with an iron fist" thing. Had I gone the Lawful Neutral route (which is totally an option if poor Andrei dies and I have to bring in a new PC), things might be different... Yeah, the way I'm approaching it is that Andrei is thinking "we were successful here, but this could have been accomplished without these unnecessary deaths." Neutral Good alignment means (to me anyway) that he should be at least fairly benevolent when he can be and while these bandits were guilty of banditry, their life has clearly been shit to this point, so if he can make things better for everyone involved, then so much the better. And he's just trying to figure out what we could have done better (which honestly, we should always be doing). For example, we ordered them to throw down their arms ... but in retrospect, we did not identify the source of our authority. Granted, Andrei (at the very least) is very clearly decked out as befits a titled nobleman and ruler, but still, at the very least, we should have declared something like 'In the name of Varnhold/Shieldlands/Iomedae..." That wasn't what I meant. My fault in being unclear. I was thinking "Andrei advances 'ahead' of the other characters under the flag of truce' more because he is the toughest of the company (highest AC, most HPs) and would thus be more capable of surviving a sneak attack from these people than another PC. Once the actual diplomancing started taking place, he would take a step back and allow those more effective at it than him to take over.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 3, 2018 10:44:33 GMT -6
This session brought up an interesting question regarding the centaurs that I'm (player, not necessarily character) trying to reconcile, specifically the whole use of centaur hide. On one hand, they're humanoid so that seems really out of bounds to me personally (and almost barbaric), but on the other, they are identified as monstrous humanoids hence they're monsters. In retrospect, I don't think the characters (at least the Brevic ones which is ... Andrei, Melikova (though I don't think she cared) and Walker; the two Outlanders might have just had wildly different cultural mores for this sort of thing) should have been as up in arms about this as we were. The point about using dragonhide and dragons are capable of speech was a good one, though I think that since they specifically look like big flying lizards, that's why some people don't think about that. Since some of us are from Brevoy, we should probably be more aware of the standards here: where is the line drawn for this sort of thing? Is it "if they have monstrous or beast in their type, they're fair game?"
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Post by LabRat on Mar 3, 2018 10:53:53 GMT -6
Uh, we just killed a creature that talked and that has a higher intelligence than Tess and we are about to eat it...
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Post by Gigermann on Mar 3, 2018 11:54:15 GMT -6
I think the issue with centaurs is entirely that their upper "half" is more-or-less indistinguishable from human, which makes it, basically, skinning a "human"
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 3, 2018 11:54:43 GMT -6
Uh, we just killed a creature that talked and that has a higher intelligence than Tess and we are about to eat it... Two things there: first, I legitimately thought the GM was just goofing off and did not realize this thing was actually talking until the fight was nearly over, and second, we don't really have time to eat this thing at the moment, what with the people of Varnhold missing...
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Post by LabRat on Mar 3, 2018 13:11:05 GMT -6
Two things there: first, I legitimately thought the GM was just goofing off and did not realize this thing was actually talking until the fight was nearly over, and second, we don't really have time to eat this thing at the moment, what with the people of Varnhold missing... Two things there: first, if you realized that it was speaking would that have actually changed your mind about killing it, providing what it had already done to our party, and second, just because we don't have time to eat it, doesn't mean we would wouldn't have otherwise I think in character (and honestly out of charcter as well), it really wouldn't have been that big of an issue. This could have easily been a slippery slope where Varnhold is concerned in terms of skinning centaurs. They didn't wake up one day and decide they were going to start killing centaurs for their pelts, I am sure that there was a gradual progression (e.g. the centaurs attacked and kills their family and friends, their pelts may have value in trade and they are trying to settle a kingdom, winter is coming and they needed resources for warmth against the elements, etc). It isn't that far of a logic jump from what we have been doing, FREX Walker took crazy hermit's armor and started wearing it because it was useful. Granted, he wasn't literally attached to it, but I think both fall under the category of "well it isn't going to do them any good when they are dead, so I may as well make use of it"
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 3, 2018 15:51:02 GMT -6
With regards to the first part, considering the fact that this "chuul" initiated combat and was actively trying to eat us, yeah ... no hesitation in killing it whatsoever on Andrei's part. It tried to eat my grand diplomat, then tried to eat me and the Most Holy Reverend Mother Tessandriel ... kill it dead. I'm not sure about eating it though. Me, personally, I'd have a lot of problems eating something that could actually talk, I think.
Which leads me mostly to the whole centaur thing. I do suspect you are correct, that the players made a big deal out of something that the characters probably would have just shrugged over. I'm just trying to get a baseline for what is appropriate in the setting. If this isn't something that Brevic citizens would really think much of, I'd like to sort of do a soft retcon to revise that convo (so maybe Andrei just disapproves personally on the eating and skinning of anything with Humanoid in the type, regardless of whether it has Monstrous at the beginning? He could concede to Casimir the point regarding the dragon and using its hide since that was a good counter-argument that had not really occurred to the player until that point.)
I'm not trying to be difficult, though. Just trying to figure out where we stand and all that.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 3, 2018 16:07:43 GMT -6
I'm actually incredibly pleased what was something that could have been a "whatever, not important" moment made the character (and player) stop and consider this issue - so thank you for that. I'd also like to preface anything I say with the reminder that, as the GM, I am in no way "judging" you or your characters actions from a "you are X so you should do Y" position. I have no desire to add any political or moral "lessons" into the story, because I feel it is a distasteful pulpit-abusing way of GM'ing. I know everyone has their own personal moral and political opinions which, especially in an environment meant to be fun, should not be demonized, questioned, etc and least of all by the "god" of the world. Sorry for the introduction, I just paranoid (probably overly so) of my opinion carrying too much weight b/c I am the GM. This session brought up an interesting question regarding the centaurs that I'm (player, not necessarily character) trying to reconcile, specifically the whole use of centaur hide. On one hand, they're humanoid so that seems really out of bounds to me personally (and almost barbaric), but on the other, they are identified as monstrous humanoids hence they're monsters. I'll start with a player POV: even outside of the D&D world specifically, it seems what is deemed barbaric, especially with regard to use of creatures, it comes down by and large to culture. Many American cultures have no problem eating beef, pig, etc, while certain regions and religions finds these diets barbaric. Certain cultures eat dog, whereas most in the west would find that barbaric, despite the eating of pig who tend to be as intelligent as dogs. I've even eaten octopus, which is an incredibly intelligent creature. I'm friends with vegans, vegetarians, pescetarians, and meatatarians each of which could find another group at best foolhardy, at worst, barbaric. Throw in the D&D world and things become drastically more complicated. Lizardfolk (in general) are both cannibalistic and willing to eat and use any part of any other race. Dragons are incredibly intelligent (moreso than humans by and large), yet dragonhide exists and would be highly prized. Pointing to a book and saying "well, they are labeled monsters" doesn't really work for me, because what if the book labeled elves, dwarves, heck, even half-elves or half-orc monsters. Does this suddenly make it "right"? Since some of us are from Brevoy, we should probably be more aware of the standards here: where is the line drawn for this sort of thing? Is it "if they have monstrous or beast in their type, they're fair game?" I think in character (and honestly out of charcter as well), it really wouldn't have been that big of an issue. This could have easily been a slippery slope where Varnhold is concerned in terms of skinning centaurs. The Brevic "opinion" of this act, in general, would likely be very similar to Andrei's: disgust and condemnation. Whereas outside of the more urban areas, there may be more distaste, but possibly some underlying understanding - as it is in areas where survival creates situations in which you choose between using a resource or dying. To me, Walays' reaction (correct me if I am wrong Giger) was one that hinting he'd seen either similar practices and it considered perfectly acceptable and normal, and he has a similar viewpoint (or, at least, doesn't particularly care one way or the other). Many people today, couldn't stomach seeing their food butchered and find the entire process at least distasteful, but will happily go to the grocery store and purchase the hunks of meat which have been cleaned and prepped and ready to cook - never thinking about how it was butchered. People on the edge of civilization tend to be required to be much more up close and personal with life, death, and nature and thus would see things differently - and if one were to go from one area to the other, their ability to stomach certain acts may change. I am letting both the players and the characters determine how they feel about what Varnhold is doing, though I will say at least culturally, the majority opinion, especially in the cities would likely be that such actions are distasteful at best, barbaric at worst - whether your character or you agree with that majority opinion is up to you, however. Though, given that you now know Varnhold makes centaur hide and you know there have been traders and merchants who visit Varnhold.... some of the leather your characters (or citizens) use right now could be centaur that you have just unknowingly been using.... A person with the tanning profession, merchant, or even knowledge nature would really be able to spot the difference if they spent some time looking at the item.... Two things there: first, I legitimately thought the GM was just goofing off and did not realize this thing was actually talking until the fight was nearly over, and second, we don't really have time to eat this thing at the moment, what with the people of Varnhold missing... This was a mistake by me not properly separating myself from joking around with the table and ensuring the players have a proper understanding as to what is going on. This, as well as wanting to better communicate so there is less ambiguity to the players is something I am really trying to remind myself to work on. Apologies for the confusion, I can definitely understand how it is difficult to tell when I am joking and when I am not when something seemingly outlandish as this huge lobster/crab/fish/cricket? creature starts talking to you like it is a thing the players should expect.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 3, 2018 21:25:36 GMT -6
Obsidian Portal updated, as well as the XP/Kingdom timeline. Glad y'all got to have some good combat time and "relearn" all of your powers as well as get used to working together as a unit - it will come in handy as your enemies become more challenging.
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Post by Gigermann on Mar 3, 2018 21:31:51 GMT -6
Gnomes are monsters in 4e…just sayin'
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Post by LabRat on Mar 16, 2018 10:16:07 GMT -6
So I'm just going to throw this out as a suggestion for today's session, but in game, it is getting dark, I'm low on spells (including heal) and I'm not sure what else is here in this little village of horrors. I would suggest that we pull out and camp for the night and then go in again at first light the next day.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 18, 2018 17:20:26 GMT -6
Obsidian Portal updated, as well as the XP/Kingdom timeline. We shall begin the next session as hell is about to break loose in the Varnhold stockade. Hopefully McN punishes his dice appropriately.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 18, 2018 17:25:20 GMT -6
Heh. "Walker learns some wizards are paranoid dicks." Nice.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 20, 2018 18:45:53 GMT -6
Also: those with tactical awareness (Andrei and... ?) may be feeling some spidey senses going off as it is becoming apparent to you that y'all are in a pretty bad tactical position to fight if there are more than a small number of enemies (you know of at least one currently) who are invisible unless you have some way to disrupt their advantage
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 21, 2018 12:38:49 GMT -6
Good thing we have a bard who can cast glitterdust...
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Post by LabRat on Mar 21, 2018 14:04:03 GMT -6
Good thing we have a bard who can cast glitterdust... And a cleric who is always prepared...
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Post by Magman on Mar 21, 2018 20:49:58 GMT -6
Good thing we have a bard who can cast glitterdust... And a cleric who is always prepared... And one blind druid Did I miss something
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Post by LabRat on Mar 22, 2018 7:21:15 GMT -6
Hey, at least you now have a seeing eye wolf!
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 22, 2018 7:49:46 GMT -6
The wizard who put an "anti-theft" device on all his books and froze you in time.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 22, 2018 9:03:57 GMT -6
@giger... if you happen to have a few extra minutes and wish to bestow upon us your artistic talents in drawing the attached battle map, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, y'all will have to deal with unintelligible chicken scratches by me
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 24, 2018 0:17:43 GMT -6
Might I recommend "Fallen Friend" for the title of this one?
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 24, 2018 15:39:16 GMT -6
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 24, 2018 17:31:12 GMT -6
Obsidian Portal updated, as well as the XP/Kingdom timeline. As an aside, Chapter 3 of Kingmaker is actually entitled "Varnhold Vanishing" and I've changed the post to reflect that. Why they'd ever name a module chapter which gives away a major driving element in the chaper before the PC's discovered it is beyond me. Dumb. Legend's Lore seemed more appropriate and I felt it was a fitting way to hide the fact that everyone from Varnhold has mysteriously disappeared until the PC's actually discovered it.
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Post by Magman on Mar 24, 2018 23:14:50 GMT -6
Walker might have a way to help Tess with bringing back Casimir Good news first or last? Good news first then Walker can reincarnate him and we would have a week to do it in and 1,000 gp worth of herbal oils, bad news there would be a good chance that he would not be a human The list Bugbear Dwarf Elf Gnoll Gnome Goblin Half-Elf Half-Orc Halfling Human Kobold Lizardfolk Orc Troglodyte GM's choice They say love conquers all Just thought I would let you know that there were options....
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Post by Gigermann on Mar 25, 2018 9:27:54 GMT -6
He so needs to come back as a Troggy
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 25, 2018 11:13:11 GMT -6
He so needs to come back as a Troggy I dunno - I'm thinking Lizardfolk since we already have a small community of them. And then, he can lead them.
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Post by WxMAN on Mar 25, 2018 11:37:04 GMT -6
Before we get to the level where PC's can just start resurrecting things willy nilly - I'd like to clarify that any spell that brings someone back from the dead is extremely rare - ie, you cannot slot it.
This way death becomes more meaningful - unless the group would prefer a safety net of resurrection spells, but I was thinking that part of what gives this campaign its feel is the more deadly aspect than what is normal (without being a meat grinder)
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Post by Rigil Kent on Mar 25, 2018 12:15:29 GMT -6
In this case, I think it should be part of a new quest, like we have to seek out the Elixir of Transformation™ which is over the hills and through the mountains. So it's the culmination of a great expedition that faces hazards and travails...
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