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Post by Gigermann on Apr 8, 2013 11:30:37 GMT -6
Another thing that might have been the problem is that most GMs aren't used to sharing a campaign. I really don't see this as an issue, but that opinion is based on our more-humble beginnings, long before you joined the group. In those early days, we GMed for 2/4 weeks and swapped, all the time—neverminding that it's the same campaign from one GM to the other, it's really no different. It's just a matter of accurately predicting the amount of stuff that can be done in a single session, and Rigil bit off way more than he could chew—which he probably suspected as he was going in, and confirmed after it started. I've been there, too. I blame the workload, combined with his tendency to do sweeping storylines—old habits.
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Post by LabRat on Apr 8, 2013 13:16:28 GMT -6
It was merely a supposition. You would know more than me.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 8, 2013 14:33:06 GMT -6
so how about a possible fix...no shoehorning a campaign...run for as long as your story takes, then it gets passed off to the next GM, with or without cliffhanger, that way no one feels rushed into finishing by a certain time frame...thoughts?
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 8, 2013 14:36:18 GMT -6
so how about a possible fix...no shoehorning a campaign...run for as long as your story takes, then it gets passed off to the next GM, with or without cliffhanger, that way no one feels rushed into finishing by a certain time frame...thoughts? Defeats the original purpose
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Post by Rigil Kent on Apr 8, 2013 15:31:17 GMT -6
Yeah, in this case, it's all me. I just need to knock some sense into my senseless head.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 9, 2013 13:32:58 GMT -6
so how about a possible fix...no shoehorning a campaign...run for as long as your story takes, then it gets passed off to the next GM, with or without cliffhanger, that way no one feels rushed into finishing by a certain time frame...thoughts? Defeats the original purpose how so? I'm not saying run for 6-12 weeks...just something like run your story (regardless if it's 2 weeks or 5 weeks) then pass it off to the next GM...don't have to get rid of the cliffhangers, just a thought...but this way we aren't trying to rush/cram into a session due to time constraints...or maybe even (if necessary but probably not recommended) pass off in the middle of a session...
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 9, 2013 14:03:44 GMT -6
The idea was to run predictably-short chunks, switching on a predictably-regular basis. Because we've already broken the rhythm, the pace of leveling is out of sync. If we just "run until the story is over," we'll have widely differing lengths of run, and if someone decides to run for eight weeks or something, we just end up with "the usual." It's deviating from the proposed plan. If what we settled on is too short, or too restrictive, we need to revisit the plan. On the other hand, with the end of this cycle coming up, it might be time to revisit anyway.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 9, 2013 15:01:14 GMT -6
ahhh, understand...I think it might not be a bad idea to revisit it once my run is thru and see where things stand
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Post by Rigil Kent on Apr 9, 2013 16:49:06 GMT -6
The idea was to run predictably-short chunks, switching on a predictably-regular basis. Because we've already broken the rhythm, the pace of leveling is out of sync. Heh. This means that budah can run 3 times instead of the 4 you guys ran and we're back to normal, right?
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 9, 2013 20:50:44 GMT -6
The idea was to run predictably-short chunks, switching on a predictably-regular basis. Because we've already broken the rhythm, the pace of leveling is out of sync. Heh. This means that budah can run 3 times instead of the 4 you guys ran and we're back to normal, right? Exactly...
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 9, 2013 20:51:05 GMT -6
As my first act as a GM...1 bennie goes to Rigil
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Post by Rigil Kent on Apr 9, 2013 22:02:25 GMT -6
FYI, I'm slowly updating the Portals. I know I'm behind, but I'm working on it. I'm also including some plot ideas in the GM section of the adventure synopsis that might interest you guys.
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Post by WxMAN on Apr 11, 2013 19:04:25 GMT -6
Sorry for the lateness...
About last run.... It is really hard to do a better review than you did Rigil, very introspective and insightful - if only it was so easy to do in the midst of running..
I thought the very was really well balanced, if a bit on the too difficult side... I think that with a more tactical game plan, we would have been destroyed... This is not meant as criticism per say... We (the players and more specifically me) instigated this fight... and I know first hand how hard it is to play optimally when you have more than just your character to worry... I guess it was more of a general observation - the PCs could have easily of made a fatal mistake with picking a fight then...
I tend to agree also with Giger that social scenes are very very difficult and I'm not sure how to better handle them but that combined with the needed rush didn't really work...
For the entire run it felt like a ton of ambition without proper consideration for time management... lots of reasons for it (work, etc) but in the end those five runs can be summed up as overall enjoyable but a little too much content for the time allotted in almost every session...
As a small side note... I found the way you took the plot threads from several campaigns and tied them together was very nice... It is also interesting how different we can approach the same concept (doppelgangers in this case)... Personally I would have used them less heavy handed.. especially with (what feels like to me) some deus ex machina that could fulfill some players goals for the PC... Not a criticism so much as an observation and different strokes and all that...
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Post by LabRat on Apr 15, 2013 12:29:42 GMT -6
I have some time today so I am going to go ahead and post Chris III’s critique. Some of this stuff may be explained when he does his own review, so sorry if I jumped the gun.
To me the story line was a bit shaky. I would have liked a bit more background story on Lug. I know that you said he was part of the patrolling the palace, but how he came to be there and why he was so inclined to help us would have been an interesting role playing opportunity that was just kind of glazed over. Also, you made it rather clear that Kingsport is in chaos. I would think that they would want every man they had to lend a hand, so us getting dispatched to go and find an artifact seems a bit off.
Regarding animal combats: Something that I learned from Giger when I ran is that animals aren’t likely to fight to the death if they are truly wild animals that aren’t enchanted. Think of it in terms of how your character plays. If you are getting the crap kicked out of you, you aren’t inclined to stick around until you are dealt the final blow. You usually back off and try to get healed or find some cover. Even though they don’t have higher thinking, animals are much the same way with self-preservation instinct.
If this was truly a wild encounter then I would have put a bit more thought in the types of animals we would encounter given the environment. I liked the idea of the R.O.U.S. because it played into your theme, but having bears and panthers seemed out of place for the environments you picked. That is why Maia did a detect magic to see if these animals were enchanted and to explain why they were out of their natural habitat.
Don’t be a slave to the dice regarding story decisions/encounters. There were several times when you made the comment that it wasn’t your fault, but it was what the dice rolled. You’re the all-powerful GM. If something seems off then adjust accordingly. If we have already had two in short succession then you could have made the decision to forgo the last one (unless there was a story plot reason).
I liked the nod to both Willow and Princess Bride. You pulled that off rather well. There wasn’t a lot of content on Friday (mainly because we weren't on task) so I don’t want to seem nitpicky but I did notice some things that may help you in the future. For right now I would try to be cognizant of the decisions you make and how easily they fit into your story. If something doesn't fit quite right, then try to make adjustments. You made it clear that you didn’t spend a lot of time on this, and first runs are always the worst, so I am interested to see how you will improve.
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 15, 2013 13:00:45 GMT -6
I didn't have a problem with the out-of-place animals—yet; I'm figuring it's (a) part of the module, and (b) may be the result of story-related issues. I've talked about "animal combat" before; in this case, I'd make allowance for the noob GM's first combat.
I suspect Lug was a last-minute addition for (potentially) Tom's sake; I would have left him out when Tom didn't show—didn't really add anything. But then, I don't know if there's a story-reason for his presence.
The one real issue I would point out was the swamp: not that it existed, but that we didn't have a well-defined reason to go through it (that I can recall)—which, again, may be an issue with the module.
Normally, I'd criticize the "quicksand" incident's excessive/unnecessary Str-checking, but in this case, it actually did add a small amount of drama to a potentially drama-less situation—even though we really were in little danger, given the Con scores involved. (BTW: anyone realize this was our second encounter w/ quicksand?)
Overall, it was a bit combat–porn-y, which I'm usually fine with. I hope the module(s) also have the opportunity for some other situations, less for my own experience than the GM's.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 15, 2013 13:21:24 GMT -6
So..starting my review of Friday - it was overall a bad day of sorts...having been up since 430 am made things a little sloppy as far as putting things together, and as far as the story line goes, I had found, modified, and pieced together the adventure a while back...and with the impromptu rewrite of the beginning of the story due to changing of the cliffhanger...I didn't refresh myself on the backstory of the adventure, my apologies, the animals were once that were included with the mod, and I have a reasoning why they are acting differently...which will be revealed at some point... I kept the encounters coming because I was realizing that due to the lack of real "meat" in the adventure, it was going by way too fast and I had a desired stopping point for the night so that the next session would be the "second half" of the adventure (which very well could be more combat porn unfortunately) the bog was a throw in that I thought could be fun due to some references throughout previous sessions and if you'd have gone around it...it would have been a lot of walking, and that's it ..Lug was a somewhat last minute addition but with potential for long reaching impact depending on a few things (that are TDB)...the back story was a last minute throw together and not as good as I wanted it...hopefully, with 2 weeks I can retcon some of the holes in the the story so it would be a little more plausible
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Post by WxMAN on Apr 15, 2013 21:20:07 GMT -6
Let's see here....
To say the story was a bit muddled was an understatement... Shelley and Giger covered the major problems... As far as having to rejigger the plot, I don't see it... instead of passing out due to a airship explosion we passed out due to a explosion in the thrown room... Nefaria declares war and Kingsport is burning so we go find an heirloom that absorbs water? Why... (this is rhetorical, just showing the mental disconnect)
Maybe I just wasn't in my right mind but a good portion of that story didn't make a lot of sense... I know part of this was due to inexperience and another part due to frankensteining a adventure path into our current campaign... I don't really 'buy' the lack of time excuse...
Also, the three combats were a bit much... there was really nothing particularly interesting about any of the fights... they were well balanced however... though I think the combat running is the easiest part of of GM'ing and since most of the night was taken up by that there isn't much to 'review' besides that the fights were well balanced though too much without enough variation to keep it interesting and the story was very hard to follow...
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 16, 2013 12:49:39 GMT -6
Those three combats were the result of the ubiquitous "random encounter," resulting in the repetitive feel. It's true, making each combat somehow unique would have been better, but how would you do that with a random encounter? (Bearing in mind that you don't know when/where that encounter will be played out exactly.)
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Post by WxMAN on Apr 16, 2013 13:14:29 GMT -6
I wouldn't do a random encounter to begin it... or if forced to I would have a couple 'arenas' planned out ahead of time and used whichever arena fit the best to the current location... hell, you could even just put a little interest in the arena on the fly... then have a couple preplanned encounters that could fit in the most likely locations the PC's will be...
A good example was Shelley's vine battle... we would have passed by it completely unawares had we not decided to bury the guy in the trees... triggering a 'random encounter' to a point...
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 16, 2013 13:25:39 GMT -6
The vine battle wasn't random—it was a set-piece fight that we could just as easily have passed by. But that's neither here nor there.
In a true sandbox game, tabletop or electronic, you can't populate everything—it's just not feasible. Usually there is a mix of set-piece and random encounters—Elder Scrolls is a good example (they used to favor the "random" a bit more, though). Granted in this particular case, it's not a sandbox, so my argument isn't exactly valid; I'm actually using this as an opportunity to improve my own upcoming sandbox, and attempting to find a way to prevent the same thing from happening.
There's no real right-or-wrong answer here. I have my own solutions in mind—a random choice of worked set-piece encounters, or some random puzzle-piece encounters (x plus y complication in z environment) sort—but I'm always open to better ideas. Hence the question.
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Post by WxMAN on Apr 16, 2013 19:46:28 GMT -6
I have my own solutions in mind—a random choice of worked set-piece encounters, or some random puzzle-piece encounters (x plus y complication in z environment) sort—but I'm always open to better ideas. Hence the question. With my hours worth of combined GMing time that is how I'd approach a sandbox... I think you have the right idea, it'll be interesting to see how it works... The biggest thing is that a good majority of the fights need something to set them apart, be it the enemy, the arena, and/or the tactics... without at least one of these being 'special' the fights begin to blend together, even more so when they happen in rapid succession
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 26, 2013 13:35:58 GMT -6
Retcon figured out and will be revealed tonight
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Post by WxMAN on Apr 26, 2013 13:46:03 GMT -6
Dun dun dun?
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 27, 2013 1:53:20 GMT -6
So...second session...
I think it went a little bit better this week (mainly due to actually getting enough rest prior to game so I wasn't jacked up on Monster) although the side conversations abound throughout the evening (not pointing any fingers as I'm just as guilty of it) and need to work on controlling those more
I think the Retcon fixed the story to the point that it made it understandable as to why we were going after Relgore instead of the mashed up version it previously was (and part of the reason that I haven't updated the Portal is, as sad as this is to say, I honestly don't remember all the details of what occurred during the first session)
One major flaw that I should have remedied was the trap issue, I should have incorporated something that would have tipped off that there were the possibility of traps, but that could also go the other way in that it was Relgore's hideout (can't remember if I actually referred to it as such) and traps were to have been expected...either way it could've been handled better by me
as previously warned it was a little "fight-porny" but hopefully not as bad as the previous session
Also - Bennies awarded to Giger (for artwork) and WxMan (for running Lug)
An additional bennie to be awarded if someone will update the portal for me lol...or maybe a +3 Holy Avenger *hint* *hint*
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Post by LabRat on Apr 27, 2013 23:43:34 GMT -6
I would agree that the second session went better than the first one. You touched on a lot of the things that I would comment on so yay for us being on the same page.
We got rather distracted on Friday. I think we get wrapped up into having fun so we don't get as much done. As a GM, if you're okay with that, then fine. If not then try to rope us back into the session.
The Retcon did tie in the story a bit better (at least it gave us a better indication as to why we would be interested in Relgore when our city was burning) so hooray for that.
Without Walen, the trap issue was something of a problem. I can remember when Walen didn't have trapfinding (or it wasn't very high) and so I had to re-create my traps and made sure they were either rather easy to find or made out of stone. Even though it wasn't till we were playing we realized we didn't have a trap finder, the situation was easily resolved and something to remember if Walen ever goes AWOL again.
The fights were more interesting with the different terrain. One thing I would probably try to focus on is maybe explaining the encounter a bit better. I didn't realize that the bugbear was Relgore until we had the cut scene. So that's just something to think about.
This may not be entirely true, but I feel like you're trying to buy us off by doing the extra GM work for you. Just take an hour a week and update the portal site. If you can't remember all the details then take notes during the night. One of the reasons why we are having this round-robin of GMs is to know what it feels like to be behind the screen. That includes all the duties, etc. If you don't experience all of them, then the point has been missed.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on Apr 28, 2013 14:20:21 GMT -6
The fights were more interesting with the different terrain. One thing I would probably try to focus on is maybe explaining the encounter a bit better. I didn't realize that the bugbear was Relgore until we had the cut scene. So that's just something to think about. This may not be entirely true, but I feel like you're trying to buy us off by doing the extra GM work for you. Just take an hour a week and update the portal site. If you can't remember all the details then take notes during the night. One of the reasons why we are having this round-robin of GMs is to know what it feels like to be behind the screen. That includes all the duties, etc. If you don't experience all of them, then the point has been missed. So, addressing two things...as far as the bugbear, I'll take blame for the confusion on that part as I'm not sure I covered the fact that Relgore was a bugbear during the first session (didn't do much of a recap either which might have helped) and two...I'm not as much pawning it off or trying to buy someone off as much as the fact that I don't remember much of the details outside of the notes I had originally...and yes, I do need to take better notes during the game so I'll be able to use them to recap on the portal...
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Post by Gigermann on Apr 29, 2013 9:46:49 GMT -6
Even if the Players had remembered about the bugbear, the Characters would not have recognized him—and, it really doesn't change anything if we did.
The "traps issue" is a bigger misstep. The rule is: know the Players, and know the Characters. This is why I started the "party stats" spreadsheet, so we can all be aware of the group's capabilities when assigning the opposition—for example, you can see that if a bad-guy has 8 HP, he'll likely go down in one hit, on average. In this case, knowing that we didn't have a rogue, the traps should have been eliminated or modified. Fortunately, nobody was lost, so no harm done, really.
Something I've been considering as GM is, before starting, "asking permission to reign everyone in" when things get distracted—assuming it's agreed to, it essentially makes it "your idea," and therefore, wouldn't feel like being a party-pooper when I do so.
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Post by Rigil Kent on May 2, 2013 9:50:37 GMT -6
Second session was definitely smoother, though again, it was more fight porn (which obviously doesn't bother me quite as much as others.) Retcon did work a little better although the hurried ending bothered me a little bit (which makes me that much angrier about the craptastic instances where I did the same thing.)
Scene and environment description definitely needs work, though we as a group could do a better job of paying attention. I had actually forgotten that the Bad Guy was a bugbear, so the fight ending with his death surprised me.
The dramatic shift of the status quo - entire leadership of the kingdom effectively wiped out - continues to be something I have to remind myself about and I still keep wondering about why they can't just Raise the king. In fact, now that I think about it, Alain should have questioned that more stringently...
Unrelated to the current run, I'm realizing that the previous jerkass GM really screwed my character over in terms of equipment and magic items. You guys all have a minimum of what? Three? Maybe four? The jerk that ran before budah shafted me - my PC is geared up almost exactly like he was when LabRat ran...
What a jerk.
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Post by thedefiantbudah on May 2, 2013 16:18:04 GMT -6
Second session was definitely smoother, though again, it was more fight porn (which obviously doesn't bother me quite as much as others.) Retcon did work a little better although the hurried ending bothered me a little bit (which makes me that much angrier about the craptastic instances where I did the same thing.) Scene and environment description definitely needs work, though we as a group could do a better job of paying attention. I had actually forgotten that the Bad Guy was a bugbear, so the fight ending with his death surprised me. The dramatic shift of the status quo - entire leadership of the kingdom effectively wiped out - continues to be something I have to remind myself about and I still keep wondering about why they can't just Raise the king. In fact, now that I think about it, Alain should have questioned that more stringently... Unrelated to the current run, I'm realizing that the previous jerkass GM really screwed my character over in terms of equipment and magic items. You guys all have a minimum of what? Three? Maybe four? The jerk that ran before budah shafted me - my PC is geared up almost exactly like he was when LabRat ran... What a jerk. The hurried ending was another victim of the retcon’d storyline, had another idea for it originally which could’ve explained the situation in the capital a little better…it might come back again at the end of the frigid story…which, depending on how the evening goes tomorrow…could be over tomorrow night, will have to see…as far as your equipment Rigil, was originally going to give you the sword from the air ship…then thought about adding magical treasure to the bandit hideout but couldn’t lock down what I wanted to do…
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Post by WxMAN on May 3, 2013 13:11:31 GMT -6
Review:
Good improvements on more interest 'arenas' in which to fight.
Fight porn makes things very hard to get a handle on a GM'ing style/faults/shining areas.
As previously mentioned some more detail and descriptions could help... I know it feels silly but it helps us players who don't know what's going inside your head... This was my biggest GM problem too...
You really should know the powers and capabilities of your NPCs since you knew we would fight the barbarian, you need to know how rage works... I pulled grappling out of my booty and didn't expect you to know those rules, that's fine... but if your NPCs have an ability - you need to know its strengths, weaknesses, and how they would fight, etc.
Overall story doesn't make overly much sense in a magical world.. As Rigil has said, why not just raise the king? How would they not be prepared for this? Starting the war, having Kingsport burn, and never having us deal with that situation kind of kills all of the time other GMs spent in making Kingsport a familiar and 'homey' place...
This may be just me, but asking one of us to do the Obsidian Portal stuff for you rubbed me the really wrong way... That combined with some other off-hand remarks by you regarding when and what you've done kind of feels like a real lack of effort towards making a quality experience for everyone... It may not be true, you could be spending every waking moment crafting this perfectly logical and well thought out adventure, and just your inexperience disrupts your ability to convey it (lord knows that happened to me)... Maybe it is my own bias but it feels like its more of a "lets get this done so I never have to GM again"...
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