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Post by Rigil Kent on Jul 19, 2016 13:35:51 GMT -6
Something else to take into account is the general medieval mindset. We in modern America take for granted the idea that social mobility is, at the very least, a possibility. It isn't necessary likely, but I could win the lottery and jump into the 1%, even if I was born in the lower 1%. Alternately, if I work really hard, I might invent a widget that changes the world and catapults me into the upper strata of society.
There is next to nothing like this in the medieval mind. If I was born as a muddy peasant, the likelihood that I will die as a muddy peasant is probably 99.999% unless I seek out a career in the Church (and even then, a highborn Churchman is automatically more "equal" than the mudgrubber.) To modern American eyes, this is hideously unfair, but the people of the era, that's just the way it was. There is a strict hierarchy of society with God at the top, followed by the king, and then his nobles with the Church trying to wrestle away the top position from the king (which leads to so much religious tension in the time.) So, for the most part, peasants have been indoctrinated from birth into "knowing their place." Daring to try and ascend beyond that is attempting to upset the "natural balance" and goes against what is considered to be the laws of God and Man.
In modern D&D and fantasy though, there is that constant trope of the peasant making good and ascending to kingship ... and such a thing would horrify the gentry of that era and would just frighten much of the peasantry (who were generally too ill educated to actually be a decent king.) With that in mind, if we were trying for anything resembling reality, the only way we could really get around that is to presume, FREX, that Andrei is of noble birth with the presumption that his family fell on hard times so they pretty much had just their Name (but little to no wealth or land.)
Just some random musings...
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Post by Gigermann on Jul 19, 2016 14:54:36 GMT -6
For the record, I've become aware of late of the extent to which I have tuned out when it comes to this stuff—and how, in general, I'm becoming that gamer I most despised so long ago, for that matter. I'm really gonna try to get my head back in the game.
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Post by LabRat on Jul 19, 2016 15:35:00 GMT -6
Something else to take into account is the general medieval mindset... I would like to think that DnD has to have a large dose of suspension of disbelief in order for it to actually work as a game. Otherwise females wouldn't even be PCs and everyone who wanted to be in a position to go adventuring would have to be stuffy nobles with the right education and means...and who would want to constant play those characters? It would lose a lot of intrigue if is were actually a true reflection of the times. For the record, I've become aware of late of the extent to which I have tuned out when it comes to this stuff... No offense intended, but WTF are you talking about? I haven't noticed a thing.
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Post by Gigermann on Jul 19, 2016 15:41:25 GMT -6
No offense intended, but WTF are you talking about? I haven't noticed a thing. I'm glad you hadn't noticed, but given my history with this group, it's actually pretty sad how far I've fallen in that regard. But that's a longer story and not quite relevant to the current discussion. Don't want to clutter this thread.
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Post by Gigermann on Jul 19, 2016 15:45:16 GMT -6
I would like to think that DnD has to have a large dose of suspension of disbelief in order for it to actually work as a game. Otherwise females wouldn't even be PCs and everyone who wanted to be in a position to go adventuring would have to be stuffy nobles with the right education and means...and who would want to constant play those characters? It would lose a lot of intrigue if is were actually a true reflection of the times. This is true. It's less of a "suspension of disbelief" issue, however, as it is establishing a consistent baseline. If we decide(d) there is a standing police force, then that's fine, but we should also expect to see that elsewhere, and probably other civic/political anachronisms as well. Female adventurers were not historically the norm, but they weren't unheard of either, for the record.
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Post by LabRat on Jul 19, 2016 15:51:30 GMT -6
This is true. It's less of a "suspension of disbelief" issue, however, as it is establishing a consistent baseline. If we decide(d) there is a standing police force, then that's fine, but we should also expect to see that elsewhere, and probably other civic/political anachronisms as well. Female adventurers were not historically the norm, but they weren't unheard of either, for the record. I agree female adventurers were around but I was speaking more of societal norms than the outliers. And maybe what you said is a good idea. Even though we may have something a bit odd for the times (such as a police force) that we just augment the world where the GM can utilize it too. That way we don't come off as being too avant garde for the times and there is consistency throughout gameplay.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Jul 19, 2016 16:00:52 GMT -6
Considering most D&D seems to presume "City Guards" = police, that's probably what we should go with. As to numbers, that much I'm unclear on.
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Post by WxMAN on Jul 19, 2016 16:04:13 GMT -6
Some options: If you want a police force we can have a police force. If not, you don't need to. We can also determine if this is the normal for this world, or if you guys are being different. Anything is good with me, as for the moment it shouldn't have any major affects, but I'm just letting y'all help build your kingdom and the world.
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Post by Magman on Jul 19, 2016 20:15:31 GMT -6
Lets not over analyze the question. So this is my thoughts.
Standard fantasy laws.
I like the idea of city guards:
I think that 1 for every 100 for now. 4 in Svetlanagrad and 5 in Tyg's Landing. I'll handle the outlying area.
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Post by Gigermann on Jul 20, 2016 8:56:56 GMT -6
I think that 1 for every 100 for now. Reasonable, and not necessarily anachronistic. Might be worthwhile to add a page for this sort of thing to the OP.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Aug 12, 2016 22:33:09 GMT -6
MONTH SEVEN (DECEMBER) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
To start, lost Ihvon as General, so Loyalty reduced by 4 until replaced. Kingdom Stability check (13). Unrest decreases by 1 to 0. Pay consumption 4, so Treasury becomes 6. Andrei takes over as General, Spymaster focuses on Economy instead of Stability. Claim Tatzlford. Build a farm (with Resource) which reduces Consumption to 2; Treasury now at 2. Deposit 4 BPs which brings Treasury back to 6. Failed Treasury check ... again (5), however gain +10 BP due to Tatzlford thing. Event (25% chance, but rolled 38 so no event.) Leaves attributes at Economy 21, Loyalty 11, Stability 22, DC 30, Treasury 16, Consumption is 2, Unrest is 0.
ADDENDUM: We have 4 River hexes. According to the Kingdom Building rules, "Economy increases by 1 for every 4 River hexes claimed, and Stability increases by 1 for every 8 such hexes claimed." so our attributes are thus: Economy 22, Loyalty 11, Stability 22, DC 30, Treasury 16, Consumption is 2, Unrest is 0.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Aug 17, 2016 10:39:46 GMT -6
With regards to our continuing money issues, these are my recommendations for the future: Build a Mill (6 BP) in the Landing. This increases both Economy and Stability by 1.Prepare the already claimed gold mind thing - Hills, so 2 BP to prep. Then construct an actual mine (6 BP). Since this is a Resource, this increases Economy by 2 and results in us gaining +2 BP per turn when collecting taxes, regardless of what our actual tax roll is.- Once the mine is prepped and built, we need to prepare that bridge hex underneath it (hills so 2 BP), and then look at constructing a road from the Landing to Svetlanagrad (total number of hexes: 6; all hexes are hills (3 BP per hex) except one which is forest (2 BP), so total cost is 17 BP over 6 months. Economy increases by +1 for every four road hexes.) This one is obviously a long-term plan.
I still want to build a castle in the Landing, but that's 27 BPs ...
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Post by WxMAN on Aug 23, 2016 9:19:02 GMT -6
What is currently being done to recruit members to the council?
It may be worth looking at Obsidian Portal Character list to see if any of the non-hostile NPCs would be worth approaching to begin handling some of the jobs that the PCs are doing double duty for.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Aug 23, 2016 9:40:10 GMT -6
What is currently being done to recruit members to the council? Andrei will pen a missive to [NAME TBD], who is Giger's planned wizard character, requesting he put me in touch with someone who might be capable of handling the Magister job. At this point, Andrei does not have any expectation that the Unnamed Character is going to become an active PC, so he's just looking for someone to fill that role. Failing that, we could potentially offer the position to Latricia Rezbin - she's a wizard, so she might work there. I note also that Loy is a Ranger. Might recruit him to take over Tess' job as "Enforcer" - given that he's LG, might be a good fit. This unfortunately leaves the General unfilled and I don't see anyone in the list of NPCs who are Shieldlands types who could take the job. Pity that Hana is so high up in her chain-of-command in Mivon - if we could convince her to stay, she could probably do the job fairly well. Maybe Andrei's step-dad? (Although that would require him to actually be in the Shieldlands...)
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Post by Gigermann on Aug 23, 2016 10:13:24 GMT -6
Need a Magnificent Seven Samurai "recruitment montage"
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Post by LabRat on Aug 23, 2016 10:28:46 GMT -6
Also, if we are able to get Tess' sister freed, she may be able to fill something. Don't know her stats, but she may be useful somewhere.
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Post by WxMAN on Aug 23, 2016 10:32:52 GMT -6
Also, if we are able to get Tess' sister freed, she may be able to fill something. Don't know her stats, but she may be useful somewhere. Royal Pickpocket
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Post by LabRat on Aug 23, 2016 12:52:22 GMT -6
Also, if we are able to get Tess' sister freed, she may be able to fill something. Don't know her stats, but she may be useful somewhere. Royal Pickpocket Royal Assassin?
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Post by Rigil Kent on Aug 23, 2016 13:51:59 GMT -6
If we end up needing a royal assassin, something has gone very, very wrong.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Aug 26, 2016 21:01:37 GMT -6
MONTH EIGHT (JANUARY) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
Kingdom Stability check (4). Unrest increases by 1 to 1. Pay consumption 2, so Treasury becomes 14. Latricia becomes Magister, Loy becomes Enforcer, Claim hex next to Tatzlford (1 BP, Treasury down 13). Tatzlford begins with Watchtower (+1 Stability, -1 Unrest). Prepare Mine Hex (Treasury to 11). Built a Mill (-6 BP, Treasury down to 5.) Create 1st Shieldland Regulars (Army Unit, 1 BP, Treasury down to 4.) Rolled 19 on Taxes so gained 14 BP. Event (75% chance, but rolled 2 on 1d4 so Event.) 48 so Kingdom Event, 23 Beneficial Event, 91 - Archaelogical find. Per GM, added 5 BP instead of the weird score. Leaves attributes at Economy 23, Loyalty 10, Stability 24, DC 32, Treasury 23, Consumption is 4, Unrest is 0.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Sept 2, 2016 21:14:54 GMT -6
MONTH NINE (FEBRUARY) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
Kingdom Stability check (19). No Unrest, so Treasury increased by 1 to 24. Pay consumption 4, so Treasury becomes 20. Build Mine (6 BP). Spend 10 BP to begin castle (need 17 more). Sell +1 rapier (+1 BP to Treasury); Rolled 8 on Taxes so gained 11 BP (Treasury at 16). Event (25% chance, but rolled 3 on 1d4 so no Event.)
Leaves attributes at Economy 25, Loyalty 10, Stability 24, DC 32, Treasury 16, Consumption is 4, Unrest is 0.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Sept 9, 2016 20:03:34 GMT -6
MONTH TEN (MARCH) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
Kingdom Stability check (3). Unrest increases by 1d4: 2. Pay consumption of 4 (Treasury becomes 12). Claim 1 hex (Kobold mines) so Treasury becomes 11. Build Farm in gold mine hex (4 BP), so Treasury down to 7. Spend 3 BP on Castle (need 14 more). Roll 4 on Taxes so no taxes collected. Event (75%: high is event - 32 Event happens. Kingdom Event. (46) Beneficial Event takes place at Svetlanagrad; 48 Natural Blessing - gain +4 to Stability until next Event phase. Gained 10 BP due to refugees.
Leaves attributes at Economy 24, Loyalty 8, Stability 26, DC 33, Treasury 14, Consumption is 3, Unrest is 2.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Sept 12, 2016 9:08:25 GMT -6
Crap. Knew this was going to happen. Forgot the mine's effects: even though no taxes were collected, the mine generates 1 BP, so Treasury is 15, not 14.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Oct 17, 2016 10:22:34 GMT -6
Some random musings and thoughts: With regards to our continuing money issues, these are my recommendations for the future: Build a Mill (6 BP) in the Landing. This increases both Economy and Stability by 1.Prepare the already claimed gold mind thing - Hills, so 2 BP to prep. Then construct an actual mine (6 BP). Since this is a Resource, this increases Economy by 2 and results in us gaining +2 BP per turn when collecting taxes, regardless of what our actual tax roll is.- Once the mine is prepped and built, we need to prepare that bridge hex underneath it (hills so 2 BP), and then look at constructing a road from the Landing to Svetlanagrad (total number of hexes: 6; all hexes are hills (3 BP per hex) except one which is forest (2 BP), so total cost is 17 BP over 6 months. Economy increases by +1 for every four road hexes.) This one is obviously a long-term plan.
I still want to build a castle in the Landing, but that's 27 BPs ... With the obtained loots from the troll watchfort, we should be able to complete "Fort Voronkov" (the castle, which is actually what the capital is probably going to be referred to down the road instead of Tyg's Landing as the kingdom evolves) in the coming month, which means we need to look at our next plans. Reviewing the map, I'm thinking we need to begin expanding a bit more (if we want to have adequate numbers to field more than the 100 troops we currently have) as well as building up the existing settlements we have. Getting the ruined elf castle and the dwarf watchtower into our "claimed" territory is probably a good idea which we can do by claiming (in this order) 6,1 (Tiressia & Falcos hex, but we're friendly to them); 7,1 (elf castle claimed); 8,1; and finally 9,1. So that's four months at a minimum (July) which will increase our Control DC to 37 and will necessitate another farm or fishery. Note: Once we claim an additional hex, we will move into Kingdom Size 11, which allows us to work on two buildings in a month, allows us to do 3 terrain improvements per month, and make two hex claims a month (all of which naturally causes the Treasury to go down much quicker but still, something to consider.) At Svetlanagrad, we currently have only a Shop & Stable (and House, but that doesn't count) so it really needs and Inn (10 BP, +1 Economy/Loyalty), while Tatzlford has only a Watchtower (and thus needs a House and then maybe a Wall.) I'm guessing that Tess really wants a Shrine (8 BP) in the capital and both Babus & Walker talked about a Shop (8 BP) for selling their alchemical concoctions. Andrei obviously wants to have a Barracks constructed at some point (6 BP, Defense +2, can be upgraded to Garrison for 22 which increase Loyalty & Stability by +2), but will be satisfied for a time with the completion of the castle. A Shrine increases Loyalty by +1 and reduces Unrest by 1 as well, and grants access to 1 minor potion, scroll or wondrous item. It can later be upgraded to a Temple (32 BP, which means we pay only 24 (difference between 8 and 32.)), while a Shop increases Economy by +1 and increases the city's base value by +500 gp. It can later be upgraded to a Luxury Store (28 BP, total cost of 20) which does not increase the kingdom attributes but increases base value by +2000 gp and grants niftier magic item access; finally, it can later be upgraded to a Magic Shop (68 BP! Total cost of 40!) which honestly just increases magic item access and does very little else (no kingdom attribute increase, no base value increase). Of the two, I personally think the Shop should be the first thing to focus on and then maybe the shrine ... considering the wide number of differing religions, we probably would have to decide which god this shrine is set to. Andrei personally would prefer a Cayden shrine over a Gorum one because the latter deity is just a thug; yeah, I know Tess is preaching a softer, kinder version of the thug, but he's still a thug. An interesting note: once the castle is completed in the capital, it provides a discount to construct a Town Hall (halves the cost, so only 11 BP) which is probably a good idea as this increases all three kingdom stats by 1 and provides a discount to construction of barracks, cistern, dump, jail and watchtowers. We could also consider (down the road) constructing a Noble Villa before the Luxury Store as the Castle provides a discount on that (half of 24 so 12) and all three kingdom attributes get a bump; the villa then provides a discount on the luxury story (so we'd only pay 10 instead of 20). And we could live in awesome style. Once we have the watchtower hex (9,1), pumping the 3 BPs to get it running is a good idea (+1 Stability, +2 Defense, unrest decreases by 1) and I'm thinking that might be a good place for our next "settlement" as we could plan for it becoming part of the "southern road" to Mivon (although most people would probably prefer to use a boat.) Rebuilding the elven castle (believe that was going to be 27 BP?) should also be a long-term plan as castles are awesome (+2 to all three kingdom attributes) and help push up our population numbers. My personal recommendation is to do this (presuming the Treasury allows it) in the coming months: APRIL - Claim 6,1 - 1 BP. This puts us at 11 Hexes.
- Finish Castle at capital - 14 BP.
- Don't FUBAR the Taxes roll.
MAY - Claim 7,1 & 8,1 (2 BPs)
- Build a farm somewhere (4 BPs)
- Construct Town Hall in capital (11 BP)
- Build House in Tatzlford (3 BP)
- Don't FUBAR the Taxes roll.
JUNE - Claim 9,1
- Repair dwarven watchtower (3 BPs) - this is actually not a "Building" but rather a Terrain Improvement
- Build Shop in capital (8 BP)
- Start investing in getting that elven castle back up and running.
- Don't FUBAR the Taxes roll.
YMMV...
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Post by Gigermann on Oct 17, 2016 12:04:08 GMT -6
Is there a "build strategy" published somewhere that optimizes the discounts? I'm thinking we follow the discounts wherever possible, and continue the "money-first" strategy
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Post by Rigil Kent on Oct 21, 2016 21:26:19 GMT -6
MONTH ELEVEN (APRIL) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
Kingdom Stability check (17). Unrest decreases 1 (to 1). Pay consumption of 3 (Treasury becomes 18). Babus becomes Magister (at Latricia's request.) Claim 2,5 (1 BP). Prepare 4,4 (2 BP). Complete castle in Landing (14 BP). Deposit large hide armor +1 (1 BP), Treasury now at 2 BP. Taxes roll 9; successful so got 13 BPs. Also gained 2 BP for Mine, so Treasury at 15. Event (25%: high is event - 01 Event Happens. 26-Kingdom Event. Hex-7 (Tatzleford). 23-Beneficial Event. 70-New Subjects (which decreases Unrest to 0.) Gained 16 BP.
Leaves attributes at Economy 32, Loyalty 13, Stability 24, DC 34, Treasury 21, Consumption is 6, Unrest is 0.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Feb 6, 2018 11:29:27 GMT -6
MONTH TWELVE (MAY) of KINGDOM BUILDING:
Kingdom Stability check (5). Unrest increse by 1 (to 1). Pay consumption of 6 (Treasury becomes 15). No territorial claims. Spent 13 BP on repairs (Treasury at 2). Deposit 4 BP (Large morningstar), +1 BP from assorted jewelry. Rolled 15 on Taxes, so gains 16 BP. Treasury at 23 BP. Also gained 2 BP for Mine, so Treasury at 25. Event (3 on d4, so no event.)
Current stats: Economy 37, Loyalty 19, Stability 28, Size 11, Control DC 34, Treasury 25, Unrest 1.
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Post by WxMAN on Feb 6, 2018 12:16:55 GMT -6
For clarification, this was May's kingdom building
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Post by Rigil Kent on Feb 6, 2018 12:20:42 GMT -6
Derp. Fixed.
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Post by Rigil Kent on Feb 7, 2018 11:12:08 GMT -6
Addendum: I erroneously deleted the Temp modifiers (+2 Economy, +3 Loyalty, +1 Stability) from the spreadsheet which were put into place to get around the "Ultimate Rulership" rule changes that the spreadsheet presumes. Corrected stats above but they come out to the following:
Current stats: Economy 37, Loyalty 19, Stability 28, Size 11, Control DC 34, Treasury 25, Unrest 1.
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